Immigration debate notes

Mark Alvarez a well known lawyer acted at the  mediator in this debate about immigration  

Main Minutemen points (Eli and Michael ) :

1. Illegal immigrants are not just victims,  they are also involved in criminal activity since they are here illegally and buy and use false documents which is also illegal and they work which is also against the law.They are committing fraud on an ongoing basis and many other crimes.

2. The Minutemen are frustrated with Government's  current immigration policy and programs such as NAFTA.(The other side is also frustrated with these same issues) They are frustrated that current laws are not being enforced and in the fact that many people that get legal visas overstay. They want the Maximum penalties enforced and they want businesses to be held accountable for hiring illegal aliens.

3. Illegal immigrates take jobs away from Americans

4. Illegal aliens and legal immigrants are invading the United States and will take over if we don't stop them.

5. We must retain our National Identity by having immigrants assimilate into our culture rather than bringing their food, culture, customs and languages with them they need to assimilate.

6. Rule of law is paramount as is the constitution

7. Eli did state that if it were up to him THEY would all be gone.

8. Illegal immigration funds criminal activity and the drug cartels since they charge people 2500 to 5000 to come to the US and it amounts to modern day slavery since many of these people sell everything they have or get loans from family or loan sharks putting their very lives at risk later in order to gain entry into the US. This people smuggling business also causes quite a bit of exploitation, money laundering, drugs, crime and other problems.

9. They tried to say that they are defenders of Legal immigrants yet in the next breath they spoke very negatively about legal immigrants that try to bring their culture with them and try to maintain it while in the US and not assimilate. They said it is a risk to our sovereignty and we could lose our National identity. They explained that this country was founded using the English language and we should maintain that or we will lose the country as we now know it.

10. Eli said that we now have 20% of Mexico's population living inside the United States of America.

11. The minutemen made a point of telling everyone that if you help illegal aliens then you are essentially funding organized crime.

12. They made it very clear that it is a choice to come to the US illegally and that no one was forced to make this illegal choice. They said that Churches, Businesses and Organized crime all benefit through illegal immigration.

13. They tried to say how bad they felt for the poor illegal aliens being used and exploited yet they made it very clear they were not just victims but active participants in illegal activity.

14. They don't pay their fair share of taxes yet they use services, welfare, education etc....

Center for Social Justice Points along with known facts

1. Will pointed out that most of the time undocumented people are just trying to work to provide for their families, he did concede by saying that there are some problems with identity theft and fraud but this is in very few cases. Greg made it clear that by legalizing these people they will come out of the shadows and have no need to use false ID in order to work and live so by legalizing them and making it easier to come over legally this will take the money out of the cartels and organized crime.

2. NAFTA caused over 2 million farmers in Mexico to lose their jobs when the US flooded Mexico with cheep corn and grain. There is a food grade corn and an animal feed grade corn and since the US sold corn at such low rates to Mexico the farmers went out of business and then illegal immigration increased greatly most likely due to this happening. Now much of the corn that should only be used for animal consumption is used for people as well. Other things the US government has done were pointed out and this portion would take too long to summarize.

3. Whether or not undocumented people take jobs away from Americans can be debated yet most of the job they have are low skilled and require no education such as a high school diploma etc.... Most Americans do not want to clean the toilets in the hotels or clean up construction sites or pick fruit in the hot fields or work in the factories sewing clothes so the people that have these jobs such as yard care and fast food are the ones that will do the work. If Americans want to work for min wage and show up and be dependable they can do so but it is not happening. Will has statistics showing that the jobs that undocumented people take from Americans is very low. There are some areas where there are problems yet the companies that hire really decide who works and who does not.

4. Will and Greg both pointed out that undocumented people are here because they had to make a choice to either stay in their countries and die and have their families suffer and possibly die or make a choice to come to the US and live and work to support their families. So yes it is their choice. Also the Minutemen said all of these people had a choice when in fact many children were brought over without being able to make the choice and these kids are now here, many don't even speak the languages of their birth land and they are living as Americans yet they are forced into the shadows and forced into looking for false social security numbers and false ID so they can work. Will pointed out that many of these people would prefer to work for a while and then go back to their countries but they cannot because the border is so dangerous now that they come and are separated from their families. Will said years ago people would come and work the fields for a time and then return home and come back a year later since the border was not so closed, dangerous and militarized.

5. This point seemed like a real joke to most people since America is made up of immigrants and our National identity is not a certain food, culture, dress or language. Greg spoke about this in a very understandable fashion explaining that if you live here among us you should have a say in government, be able to form unions to establish fair wages and working conditions. It was pointed out that Guest workers under the current system have to stay with the employer that they started out with so if they complain about bad conditions or other problems not only do they lose their job but they get deported. This is another problem with the current system. There is a need for thousands of Guest workers yet the Government limits it to very few.

6. Greg asked Eli if this is the same constitution and the same rule of law that said it was illegal for Black people to use the same bathrooms as white people or that it was illegal for black people to sit in the front seats of the bus. Is this the same constitution that would not allow women to vote and is this the same rule of law that fined a women for doing so?

7. If it were up to Greg the border would be open and the natural Push/Pull system would control itself. Supply and Demand would prevail and we could legalize all of these people and many of them would come and work for a time and then go back to their countries to live. It was pointed out that mass deportation is not likely to occur anytime soon nor is mass amnesty. Much of the illegal and criminal activity would be done away with by opening the borders instead of building walls and fences and manning the border with guns. Greg made it very clear that this type of tactic does not work but causes problems and the analogy is Prohibition showing that by making the activity illegal that it creates more crime and when alcohol was legalized the crime factor went almost completely away and the same would occur today with immigration.

8. Will made a point that many of the people that come here do so on foot at great risk, crossing Mexico and the desert just to gain employment  that can feed their families. In their countries where they only make 5 dollars a day they don't have the means to pay organized crime 2500 or 5000 so they cross the rivers and deserts themselves. Some of them do pay to come over and they either pay back those loans later.

9. Greg and Will both made it very clear that no human being is illegal and that we all have rights and we should have the ability to work and provide for our families no matter where we decide to live.

10. The current US Government estimate of undocumented people is about 10.4 and dropping and census statistics will be released soon and that will be very interesting. Eli's claim could be correct in this matter since the population of Mexico is about 112 million yet we need to remember that not all the people that are here in the US as undocumented people are from Mexico.

11. Greg quoted Jesus and talked about the Bible. If you can get the recording I would encourage you to listen to this because his answer was well put. Loving our neighbors, casting the beam out of our own eye before worrying about the mote in our neighbors eye, loving our enemies and doing good to those that hate us. The comparisons made were well done.

12. Greg said,  Yes it is a choice, a choice to live in poverty or many time a choice of death or a choice to come to the US and live. So he said yes it is their choice and if most of us were in that same situation we would make the same choice.

13. Greg was asked if he did not like how the US was doing things why is he still living here why doesn't he just leave. Greg's answer was also very informative but the short answer is he feels he can make changes here to policy through legal methods to change bad law, poor policy and he can be more help within the country than without. Greg does not feel that the USA causes all Evil in the world although he pointed out several very good examples where things we have done as a country has caused great problems in the world. All the refugees from Iraq and many other examples were cited. Will also spoke of this and his answer was very informative as well. Both of them have been to many countries and seen how they live and heard and seen what these people feel and their perception of the US to be and why they feel that way.

14. Undocumented aliens paid over 9 billion dollars into the FICA funds alone in 2009 and they won't ever see any of the money. They pay sales tax, gas tax, food tax and the list goes on. In fact the argument that they get free education for their kids is flawed greatly since undocumented people pay RENT and in many cases HOUSE PAYMENTS and by so doing they PAY PROPERTY TAX and a great percentage of property tax goes to pay for EDUCATION. Will has references for the statistics and I have many references as well.

We don't condone illegal activity yet the system is flawed in a big way and needs to be reformed and it needs to be done in a reasonable way. Rosa Parks sat in the front of the bus and suffered greatly for what she did but eventually a bad law was changed. The same with the women that were fined and arrested for voting and there are many more examples. Our constitution only considered Blacks to be a percentage of a whole person at one time so yet the constitution has been changed and fixed since it was first written.

After the debate was over I looked on what had passed during the 2+ hour period and felt good points were made on both sides. I have heard Paul Mero (with the Sutherland Institute)  debate the same issues and he is very conservative yet on this issue stands with those that are normally very liberal. The Center for Social Justice seemed to do a better job in my humble opinion than the Minutemen however if Eli would have given his spot to someone else that was not so extreme the outcome may have been different. Nothing was solved and no one really won the debate yet it was very nice that they could be in the same room and civilly discuss these issues face to face. I personally have different opinions than those expressed so I would differ on several of the points on both sides but overall this was a great debate. Sorry I did not take time to polish this quick overview of the debate and none of my review is word for word so I am open for those on both sides to correct anything I may have misquoted or messed up. I really doubt many people will even read this review so for the most part I wanted to type it up just to organize my notes that I took while at the debate so in no way is this meant to be exactly accurate or complete. I won't apologize for anything that I have said about anyone especially Eli since he really does sound like Archie Bunker but you know I bet he is proud of that fact and I am the one that is the strange mislead extreme person in his opinion.

My Personal thoughts on each of the issues. If my way of thinking matches the Center for Social Justice I will keep the item short or blank.

1.The US supreme court ruled in 2009 that if people are using a social security number just to work that they will not be prosecuted for fraud unless there is proof that they were trying to steel money etc....This seems to send a dual message or better put an ambiguous message of we want your tax dollars so go ahead and use someone Else's social security number but just don't take out loans or write checks in their name and that will be ok wink, wink.

2. Same

3. Same

4. This  comment was made and not many people took them seriously although some people do and they actually feel this way. Undocumented people combined with legal immigrants are not invading the country although they do have a much higher birth rate than most white Americans so naturally the percentages will increase and the United States will change demographically as time goes on whether people like it or not,  so it behooves everyone to get along, learn to try food from different countries, enjoy and appreciate different culture events and have a welcoming attitude. Having open borders like Greg advocates seems ideal although to me it is not realistic so I would say we do need law, rules and some limits although they are very outdated laws and the system is obviously broken and needs to be reformed.

5. Our Nation is what it is because of immigrants and if a store owner wants to put signs up in Spanish because he wants to market to a certain group of people and he feels he can make more money that way then have at it.

6. Rule of law is fine when the laws are just but when they are not just or reasonable it is not moral  to use the rule of law to separate families.

7. If it were up to me I would still allow people like Eli to stay in the country, have his interesting opinions, protest, try to change the laws to what he thinks they should be and I would hope that the American People would realize how ridiculous some of his proposals are and if we as a nation can't see that then our Nation will eventually get what it deserves.

8. In some cases illegal immigration does fund illegal activity, I can't say that it does not happen. Making it easier for people to come would reduce the criminal activity. Some argue that legalizing certain drugs would put the cartels out of business as well. (Same concept) Being realistic we have to come down hard on crime although ICE seems to be spending quite a bit of time on the easy cases since they have the information. Many of those easy cases are people with no criminal records. So many people call these so called "illegal aliens" criminals when in fact what they are guilty of is only a Civil infraction not criminal. Unlawful presence is not criminal it is civil. The LDS or Mormon Church "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" issues these undocumented people church callings, lets them attend the Sacred Temple and allows them to go on full time service missions. One of the questions asked in the Temple recommend interview is "Are you honest in your daily dealings with your fellowmen. Many LDS Law makers site the article of faith that says we believe in obeying the law and then say the undocumented people are not worthy or that they are criminals since they broke the law. This type of reasoning is a joke since a comparison of a civil infraction that many of us are guilty of is SPEEDING and most Mormons still get their Temple recommend even if they did go 5 miles over the speed limit or even if they got a ticket. Some say it is not a good or just comparison yet it is since most people speed on a regular basis and think nothing of it yet they feel that someone that has overstayed their visa or someone that is unlawfully present should be treated like a criminal even before it has been proven that they really are here unlawfully.

9. The minutemen cause undocumented people to have fear so I would not really say they are defenders of the undocumented and after Eli's comments about wanting all of them GONE illegal and legal immigrants I would say the fear is justified.

10. 20% of the Current Mexican population would be 12 million so Eli's statement seems to be accurate. Now we need to ask ourselves why are they coming here and what can be done to help the Countries such as Mexico so the people don't have to escape the corruption and poverty. Let's look at the root problems rather than treating the symptoms of the problem by building fences etc...

11. Same

12. When you get to know people, their stories and what they have gone through then you can understand that many times they did not have a choice. The wages in my wife's hometown are 3 to 5 dollars a day or $60 to $100 a month and yet the cost of living is $500 to $600 per month so most people there live way below the poverty level and many try to put their kids to work way before they should be done with school. You cannot possibly understand this until you visit and see for yourself how it is. I was there in 2008 and I was also in Guatemala in 2010 with her family and I saw how they lived and I did interviews with the people and saw the kids that were working instead of going to school. If most of us had to make a choice to stay in those countries or risk our lives to go to the US and make 20 times the wages and be able to send some back to our families we would do so in a heart beat. We would commit the CIVIL INFRACTION without a thought of being criminals. It may not be right for them to come illegally but it is reality.

13. Same

14. Same - They pay far more taxes than most people know about. Even with this being the case it does not make it right for them to butt in line ahead of those that are applying legally. Having said what I did about the LDS church I do need to clarify and say that the Church encourages people to stay in their countries and improve their lives there.  The Church encourages people to keep the laws of the land and the Church will not put people through the job training classes of the church and help them find employment unless they are in the US legally. The Church recognizes that they are here in the US and that they should have the benefit of being Spiritually uplifted and many times in their own languages. The Church teaches free English classes. The Catholic Church in my area teaches free English classes as well and the parking lots are full every time they have classes and there is a waiting list. People cannot tell me that they people don't want to learn English because they do. Many of them are trying to work two jobs and either send money home to their families or they have their families here.

15. Many of these people are afraid to use the Emergency Services for fear of being caught so their usage of theses services are on average less than US Citizens. They also try to stay out of trouble and most of the ones I speak to tell that they always keep their car insurance current because if it is not and they have problems the chances are much higher that they will get deported so they try to keep all the traffic laws etc... Those that are breaking the laws here should be cited, spend time in jail if need be and then deported. Minor things such as speeding tickets are not what I am talking about when it comes to crime.

16. The Federal Government does not have the funds to enforce the current laws nor do they have the man power. The States cannot legally enforce federal law and when a state passes laws and they say it mirrors the Federal Law it really does not because AZ made a Federal Civil infraction into a state criminal crime. I have spoken with several lawyers about this and it is very interesting but most people don't want to know about it, they don't care they just want something done. Many people don't know about many families being separated. Under the law several years ago two of my neighbors would have been fine but today two separate families are now separated with the wife here and the husband deported. One of them has a new baby and the other one lived in Mexico with her husband for 2 months and is now back to try to save money for forms.

17. There is no legal line that most of these Mexicans can go get into. I don't like it when people say, they should go home and get in the legal line. There are only a few legally ways to get visas and most Mexicans don't qualify for any of those ways so telling a person that is here unlawfully to take their kids home to their country where the unemployment rate is higher than here is not a solution. Separating the families is not a solution. Treating them as criminals unless they have been convicted is not a solution. Reasonable reform needs to occur. A national ID with biometric fingerprint info, photos and other information needs to be issued and we need to put this information on an ID Card with a smart chip and have it match the computer systems that are all tied together such as the IRS, ICE, Social Security Administration, Police etc.... This would be much better than e-verify because that only verifies a number and a name and anyone can use anyone else's name and number whereas they could not with the biometric information.

18. When we legalize these people we would charge a fine 3000 or so and that would generate the money needed for the computers, scanners etc...They would go through background checks and this would not put them ahead in the line for citizenship ahead of anyone that applied legally but they could legally work and live here in the US. This would bring them out the shadows and no this is not amnesty since amnesty is getting off Scott free without a penalty and with this system they would need to pay the fine and meet the other requirements and pass a background check.